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Message Boards Forum Index Medications/Treatments for Alzheimer's and Other Related Dementias namenda and aricept|
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I've been reading these back and forth posts with great interest,,, trying to decide what if anything I could do to help my poor spouse of 54 with EOAD..... Her condition is reapidly deteriorating and Coffeesnob I must say , so is yours.... You are way out in Left field now. Politicinzing is not what I need and I suspect most others resent it.....Please stay on task defending your poisition if you must but leave out the reference to the illegal war.... we have men and women putting there life on the line for you. This board is not designed for the garbage you are now spewing. And yes I'm mad...... |
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Sorry I did not start it, mim did; in her comments about how wonderful america is. I am glad your mad, you should be. We should all be mad. No lectures thanks anyways, no one is putting their life on the lines for me, NOT IN MY NAME. Never now, never ever. One might say you are spewing garbage too. The relevance of this discussion should be to look at the questioning of the use of these drugs, versus using homeopathy. My anger is at reading and studying the evergreening of these drugs and their misuse. Mim has never addressed my direct question about the evergreening, and rather hop skipped and jumped around it. peace. |
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Coffee:
I believe at this point you are looking to continue to argue. I'm sorry that you are angry, but once again you are entitled to your opinions and I am to mine. As I said it's time to agree to disagree. The political comments are unfounded, regardless of what is going on today what our forefathers allowed us was the freedom of speech and expression. I'm not going to dignify any more conversation regarding the homeopathics or vitamin therapy as it's just a big circle. Peace to you, I hope you do find some in your life. |
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Mim-just an fyi hun "what our forefathers allowed us was the freedom of speech and expression." that right there is politico chatter. Do not tell a fellow person to stiffle, when you need to look at what you are writing yourself. AS much as you can throw into a conversation about drugs-and keep addding that bogus politico slant stuff, I have just as much right to say what I say. If you stop with the politico chatter so will I , but you have not stopped. |
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Mim-just an fyi hun
"what our forefathers allowed us was the freedom of speech and expression." that right there is politico chatter. Do not tell a fellow person to stiffle, when you need to look at what you are writing yourself. AS much as you can throw into a conversation about drugs-and keep addding that bogus politico slant stuff, I have just as much right to say what I say. If you stop with the politico chatter so will I , but you have not stopped.[/QUOTE] Coffee: All I can say is that I'm sorry you are so angry and as I've said no matter what I say you'll turn my words and we'll go in a circle. Often times people find ways to vent their frustrations and anger on someone, maybe that is my place with you. There is no point in being antagonistic. What I have said does come from my heart, not a spin as you suggest. My attempts to explain myself or clarify are just spun in your replies. I can only say I feel so that you angry and I wish you calmness and understanding. mim |
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Coffee: All I can say is that I'm sorry you are so angry and as I've said no matter what I say you'll turn my words and we'll go in a circle. Often times people find ways to vent their frustrations and anger on someone, maybe that is my place with you. There is no point in being antagonistic. What I have said does come from my heart, not a spin as you suggest. My attempts to explain myself or clarify are just spun in your replies. I can only say I feel so that you angry and I wish you calmness and understanding. mim[/QUOTE] Mim: I am not angry, or deflecting on you. I appreciate your analysis, but thats not the case. I only find that when people start sidetracking on a conversation with the "we can agree to disagree" and "thats what america is about" I am so blown away at the dark-tinted glasses that "some" of us are wearing. |
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OK, so some people have beliefs that alternative treatments for AD are effective. Fine. Use them if you think they will work for your loved ones. However, my mother's insurance in Pennsylvania will NOT pay for them. Let's please stay with the medically accepted treatments. I realize that effectiveness is measureable, and has been shown in clinical trials for AD medications,and while they may show a significant improvement over placebo, none are a magic bullet that is going to cure AD. If you want to be policital, push your elected officials to provide more funding for stem cell research. Some of us moveon.org people have AD parents too. My friend's father died of AD 19 years ago, and we all know that no cure has been discovered since then. Hopefully, the next 19 years will not be the same.
Mim, I have confidence that the doc treating my mother knows what he is doing when faced with a dementia patient. His speciality is psych/neuro and he is head of the geriatric behavioral health center at the local hospital. I first noticed your statement about risperdal not being approved for geriatric dementia patients, and so I questioned it's use for my mother's paranoia. While it is an off-label use (as it is for seraquil and the other atypical anti-psychotics) what alternatives are available except the traditional anti-psychotics, and their side effects were worse than the newer ones. If a dementia patient has paranoia issues, what else can be done? I understand the cerebovascular, diabetes, and other risks, but again what else can be given? After reviews by the psychnurse and psychdoc, they decided to maintain all medications, and actually increase Risperdal from 0.5mg to 1.0mg because the paranoia was not being affected with the lower dose. On my suggestion, they will watch closely for tremors and other Risperdal side effects. They are limiting the Namenda at 15mg per day for now, and may increase it later to 20mg if no other drug problems arise. Mim, thank you again for your comments and suggestions. Since this is my first personal experience with AD, not having a solution to a medical problem is tough to deal with. Thank goodness for Xanax(for me, not my mother). I will take your suggestion about a good AD book. By the way, I am in Pittsburgh. |
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Coffee: Please take your ill-informed left-wing rants to a more appropriate website (e.g. moveon.org). Many of us are seeking hints, tips, and ideas to help a loved one suffering from Alzheimer's Disease -- and your radical political ravings are a distraction. Thanks. You have spoken for me also mim...........I only want infor that can help my wife.... the rest of the liberal rantings fail to interest me....Coffeesnob has lost all credibility from my viewpoint....and the homepathics along with her...... Coffesnob , you have lost the debate,,, go away..........tuck your tail,,,,, leave,,,,,,,,,or stay and rant ,,,, I won't listen any longer........ |
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oh and the homeopathics too... come on already. peace. |
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I was never debating with anyone, and I did not start it off subject MIM did. Its obvious, that many people are stuck in their world of not looking at the truth of drug EVERGREENING and it has nothing to do with where you are on the political spectrum, it has to do with how we with loved ones with this disease are being persuaded to keep our loved ones on these drugs that are not even meant for people in final stages. Whether or not, you choose to listen to a success story with homeopathics, or choose to allow your loved one to be drugged and doped out, is your own choice. What gets my goat, and has thru all these posts is some peoples inability to even accept that there might be other choices, and they might work real well for some people. Some of us are missing out, on other things that might be successful in keeping a quality of life for a loved one-instead of the drugged out, slunked head, sleeping life that so many lead. It makes me very sad for many people here.
peace. |
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My mothers medicare-medicaid does not pay either. The homeopathics she takes are less than $30 a month, out of my pocket. The Zyprexa she took was over $20 a pill billed to medicare. I look at people every night at the nursing home on all these drugs..these medically proven drugs, and they have absolutely no quality of life, some of them are taking other drugs to counter the side effects of the "alz drugs"...and then more benzos to counter that. This is not, at all- providing quality of life to people in their final chapters. Every night I see nurses cramming pills crushed in pudding in these peoples mouths, aricept, namenda, tons of benzos..benzo's on top of benzos, they are half conscious anyway, and on top of that, more sedatives??? Its a huge picture of clinical abuse, and I don;t care if you are a member of moveon.org,(which I am not) or the christian coalition- you ought to be concerned with the clinical abuse that is everywhere with these drugs. If my one case, with my success of my mother being on homeopathics and not dopey drugs; could be yours- thats all I hope for you, or in other words-if it works so well for my loved one, maybe theres a chance it might work for yours. peace. |
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Coffee:
I will address your last comment to inform the room of what "Evergreening" as I don't believe it's truely relevant to Pharma alone. All companies practice Evergreening, particularly in the tech world. Example is multiple versions of software or hardware, such as the Pentium Chip, there's all kinds of versions, this is used to extend the "life" of the product. In terms of Pharma they do this through multiple patents to try to stop generic introduction. Many times generics are not of the same quality of the brand names, this is known throughout the pharmacy, insurance and medical practice. I did research your specific comments that were linked to an article posted in 2002 by the Wallstreet journal. Doctors and clinicians understand the difference between a program that is a "promotional" program and an "education" program. We know if we attend a dinner by Eli Lilly discussing a product, you know that you must take the info with a grain of salt b/c it may not be entirely accurate. But when you go to a CME program, IT has to be accurate data as you can not provide CME programs that have promo data. We know the difference and you look for yourself on Pubmed for independnet research, no good clinician will believe a drug rep. They are there to sell you their product...so what you should do is reasearch before you prescribe as a clinician. What makes the issue more complicated is that managed care organizations create what is called formularies which only allow you to prescribe "approved" meds and you may only have 1 choice for a disease, sometimes none. So if all you can prescribe is Exelon for AD or Aricept that's all you can prescribe. For example up until this year Kaiser clinicians could not prescribe Namenda and Aricept combination therapy. All they could script is Aricept / Exelon...that changed now there are more options. And for those who can't take cholinesterase inhibtors such as Aricept or Exelon now they can have the option of taking Namenda. There is good and bad with all medications, they may not work for everyone. You must be responsible and prescribe the right medication or combination of medications for the patient. It's about responsiblity to your patient. That's also why we have orphan drugs that don't have indications for certain disease states, such as Huntington's disease. It has no treatment of it's own, therefore you will prescribe for off label use under orphan drug catorgory and you may have to import it from other countries...this was true for sometime with Memantine (namenda) for many years for Parkinson's, Pain and AD. So room understand evergreening is a practice by car manufacturers, software companies, tech companies, electronic manufacturers and yes pharmaceutical companies. It's about extending the quality of life for the patient for us...for any company it's about extending the life of the product...it's not mutually exclusive to pharma / med device. |
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Coffee:
I have found that I agree with you on your last comment to some extent. The nursing homes do typically do chemically restrain people or physically restrain them, I DO NOT believe in this practice. Quality of life is very important and the last intervention for behaviors should be medication, first it should be enviornmental and social changes...if that doesn't work then meds may come into play. Nursing homes are different than ALF and in home care...A disturbing trend in Cal. is the use of Haldol for AD, it's dispensed in some areas like Candy without investigation of behavior to rule out vit. deficancy, uti, depression, etc. We all should take notice. But this practice is also common in hospitals in order to protect the patient from wandering...but this is also the c ase in nursing homes as many are not "locked" facilities like you find in Alz specific ALF's. Unfortunately there is no good way to deal with this as many patients have no family, no money and no means to private pay for ALF's and at the mercy of Medicare Managedcare and Medicade. |
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Coffee: I'm happy that homeopathic treatment seems to be effective for your mother. My concern is that you are encouraging others to ignore scientific randomized clinical trials of AD drugs that show statistically significant effectiveness. In lieu of this, you are encouraging reliance on the placebo effect which is what homeopathy "usually" provides. I say "usually" because there are a few instances where homeopathic treatment provides scientifically proven effectiveness, but they are rare. I constantly question the docs and nurses concerning medication to be certain that they are appropriate for my mother's dementia. As an engineer, I want to see proof of effectiveness, not belief.
Since I am relatively new here, I just reviewed past posts and see that much talk has been about homeopathy, and not about accepted medical treatments and research into better treatments. Why? A substance may be included in the Homeopathic Pharmacopeia, but that does not mean that it has ever been scientifically tested for effectiveness. They may be less dangerous than 18th century medical procedures, but the only reason they are recognized as "drugs" is because in 1938 a homeopathic physician who also happened to be a US Senator demanded that it be included in the US Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act. Why do you think the last US homeopathic school closed in 1920? Could it be due to advances in medical science and education? Some dementia patients do not respond to the accepted treatments(and my mother is one who has not responded well). However, I would not think of taking her off of Aricept and Namenda, despite the "evergreening" issue, unless the side effects would require it. If nothing else worked to improve her quality of life, would I consider homeopathic treatments? Until I am in that situation, I don't know what I would do. But I hope that I would rely upon reason over belief, and upon science over pseudoscience. |
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I would encourage any and all to try it. You certainly have a lot less to lose than a seizure caused by aricept. Sorry I disagree with you. Homeopathy is practised all over Europe, and is and always has been a form of medicine. You if you have children are using a form of homeopathy by immunizing your children- same exact way homeopathy works. Just like that tiny little bit of small pox shots we all got. Just enough to evoke a healing response. Get yourself a book on homeopathy and then we will talk. |
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A note on seizures:
Cholisterase inhbitors do not have a direct corrolation to seizure activity, it is hypothosized that cholinomimetics, or medications working with the cholinergic system (which is the excitatory neurotransmitters that process / carry info), are believed to have some potential to cause possible general convulsions. It is well known that Alzheimer’s disease may be an important risk factor for new-onset seizures in older adults. AD patients younger age of onset are particularly susceptible to seizures regardless of the use of Aricept, Exelon, Remynl / Razadyne. What is important about this is that the cholinomimetics have the same hypothosis relating to the cardiovascular system, renal / gynourinary and respitory systems. We don't see people taking aricept or exelon having respitory failure or renal failure...the risk is the same between all the systems to be accurate. Coffee Posted this: Posted August 28, 2005 09:59 PM Note:aricept first side effect is seizures. This is FALSE It is not the first side effect. GI upset is and possibly dizziness, or nightmares. Homeopathic medications or any type of substance effecting the bodies functioning can cause various reactions / side effects. Keeping the facts straight. |
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Hi Coffesnob, I did not intend to post again on this forum after I bade goodbye to its members a week ago (see quoted text above). But your response-post got sent to me via my Google Alerts subscription, and I thought that saying a few words might be useful and helpful to all. I can appreciate your criticism about my "being too nice" in my last response to "Mim" who, for all intents and purposes --- possibly because s/he knows a lot about AD, Aricept and Namenda and/or perhaps really has a sincere desire to help folks here --- would like to assume the mantle of leadership in this forum. I think s/he has succeeded and has no wish to give it up. I have no intention to challenge that leadership. But I just wanted to be factual, rational and above all, helpful (my wife says AND complains that even when I myself do complain to others, I speak so softly and behaves so mildly that people may not take me seriously at all!). I wanted to offer "an alternative" to all those who care to listen, just as you do. My personal experience with Mangosteen (myself, my sister, my daughter, my wife's aunt, a close family friend) "compels" me to do so - I feel I "must" share Mangosteen with others. We probably can go one step further than merely "say" we hope others will consider other options than the drugs they've heard or come to know. I think we should offer them a more direct way to know more about these options... perhaps give them more helpful resources that you and I know about. In your case, you can tell them about a website about homeopathy --- even a vendor of homeopathic products... so they have a place to go to for even more information than the one we're providing them here. That way, they can make a more informed decision whether or not they should give it a try. In my case, I can provide them two resources to help them be more well-informed about Mangosteen. The first is a website about the health benefits of Mangosteen and what doctors are saying about it (http://mangosteen-juice-online.com/). The second is a free and open teleconference call about Mangosteen and drugs, hosted by a physician and a very knowledgeable pharmacist. These calls are held every Tuesday (12:00 noon PST) hosted by the physician, and Thursday (07:00 pm PST) hosted by the pharmacist who really, really knows a lot about drugs, their effects and side effects. You can join in the discussion and ask questions. Dial 641-594-7001, use Pin Number 535013, then press the # sign. Lastly, I've written enough about the Mangosteen here as an option and will not post on this forum unless I have to respond to one. All the best, Flip Can Mangosteen Do ALL That? http://mangosteen-juice-online.com |
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FALSE:::: homeopathics do not ever have side effects. Or reactions. They are 1- 1 millionth diluted in some cases, and they either work or they don't. No side effects- its vibrational medicine, and used to evoke a slight healing response. Again we have people mis-informing about homeopathics...imagine 1- 1millionth of chamomile, causing a side effect??? Check the facts jack. |
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Furthermore; the place I got the seizures information was the drug manufacturer of Aricept. Seizures is listed on every site; as a number one side effect of aricept. |
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yes, I agree. And I have suggested a few books...seems like with homeopathy we have to go back to square A for some people here-they can also read the Materia Medica by DR. Hanhemann; for all of their "proof". |
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I have a parent with AD. I want to provide her with the most appropriate medical care, not unproven "alternatives". Alternative treatments have not been scientifically tested and their advocates usually deny the need for such testing. By testing, I mean the rigorous evidence of safety and effectiveness that is required by the FDA for the approval of drugs. Also required is peer-review for the publication of research reports in medical journals. If you want to deny the validity of the scientific method, then I would rather talk to the wall.
Yes, I definitely have difficulty with some postings on this board that disparage modern science, and instead rely on ancient practices and natural remedies that are believed to be more potent and less toxic than conventional medicine. Not only are homeopathy and fruit drinks fervently promoted despite not only the lack of good clinical evidence of effectiveness, but they are also done so in the presence of a rationale that violates fundamental scientific laws. Don't ask me to read an 18th century book on medical practices. Yes, digitalis is derived from the foxglove plant, but it has gone thru scientific studies to prove it can be used to treat heart disease patients. Yes, tamoxifen was derived from the Pacific yew tree, but it was proven in clinical trials to reduce the recurrence of breast cancer. Nature has many wonderful substances to offer us, but put them thru modern scientific studies before letting people think that they are helping their loved ones by ignoring the medical experts. And if you think homeopatic "substances" are benign, ask those people who developed anosmia (lost their sense of smell) from using zinc nasal sprays in recent years. What a wonderful homepathic treatment that turned out to be. I started posting because Mim said in July that Risperdal was not suitable for dementia patients and since my mother's psych/neuro doc prescribed just that treatment for her paranoia, I questioned him thoroughly. The answers I received satisfied my concerns because the doc and nurses at the ALF were closely monitoring for side effects, and because my mother had no history of cerebovascular problems. That is the type of assistance I hoped to receive when I started posting, not the herb and fruit drink malarky. Dan |
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I guess the drug company malarky sounds better-they do a much better job. The disease is the disease- all these drugs do is dope out the person who is on them, take away all their quality of life, render them full of side effects!! I was there, I was on the tailpipe of watching my mother take zyprexa, I see 35 residents every night at a locked ward get spoonfuls of aricept, namenda, ativan, valium, depakote, (they even make depakote sprinkles now for the ice cream)...none of them are getting better, none of them sustaining a better condition from these tested..western drugs. Most of them are getting worse. but yet, they are still them for life. I think it important that a success story be shared, it might become someone elses. I see no one, no one at all, studying alzheimers residents at any nursing home to "prove" these stupid rip off drugs work...how would they know?? I think its peoples own fears, about themselves that stops people from trying something different. If you really love your loved one, focus on their needs, not your own insecurities about whether or not you believe in drugs or homeopathy- if this attitude of PRO-drugs is the mainstream, we all better pray for euthanasia!! |
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and about the nose spray, anyone who excessively sprays anything up their nose is going to cause damage. Lets be real.
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Coffee: Once again your facts are wrong. You do not know how to read a study, a FDA insert for the Rx. Cholimetrics can be linked to a hypothosized seizure or respitory, gynourinary or cardiovascular malfuction. You are saying something that is inaccurate and those reading this on the board should absolutely understand that you are spreading misinformation because of your personal bias about the meds and your belief in homeopathics. Between you and flip don't you understand that the individuals who have responded on this board want you to stop with this discussion?
Please start a new discussion on homeopathics so those who want to know more about them can visit you there. Stop spreading misinformation, you are entitled to your opinion, but not entitled to lie or turn a statement required by the FDA into fodder for your homeopathic arguement. |
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Furthermore; the place I got the seizures information was the drug manufacturer of Aricept. Seizures is listed on every site; as a number one side effect of aricept.[/QUOTE] THIS IS COMPLETELY INACCURATE, GI UPSET AND DIZZINESS CAN BE A SIDE EFFECT, THERE ARE NO DOCUMENTED CASES OF DIRECT SEIZURE DISORDER RELATED TO ARICEPT, EXELON or RAZADYNE -- |
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FALSE:::: homeopathics do not ever have side effects. Or reactions. They are 1- 1 millionth diluted in some cases, and they either work or they don't. No side effects- its vibrational medicine, and used to evoke a slight healing response. Again we have people mis-informing about homeopathics...imagine 1- 1millionth of chamomile, causing a side effect??? Check the facts jack.[/QUOTE] All I can do is laugh. That is a completely misinformed statement. Example, if you are an asthmatic and take chamomile you can have very serious side effects related to the respitory system. Moreover, taking echinacea while you are sick or are immuno compromised further lowers your bodies ability to have immuno response. As well there is such a thing called allergies! Many times people have reactions to natural substances that cause allergic responses. People with known allergies should be very careful of homeopathics because they do not always know what species of plant homeopathic treatments come from. So that is misniformation. Regardless of the dillution it only takes a small amount of an allergin to cause anaphlaxis. |
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All I can do is laugh. That is a completely misinformed statement. Example, if you are an asthmatic and take chamomile you can have very serious side effects related to the respitory system. Moreover, taking echinacea while you are sick or are immuno compromised further lowers your bodies ability to have immuno response. As well there is such a thing called allergies! Many times people have reactions to natural substances that cause allergic responses. People with known allergies should be very careful of homeopathics because they do not always know what species of plant homeopathic treatments come from. So that is misniformation. Regardless of the dillution it only takes a small amount of an allergin to cause anaphlaxis.[/QUOTE] This is not apples to apples..1/ 1 millionth of trillianth of chamomile is what a homeopathic would prescribe for you if you were allergic to it. Its clear, you have no concept of understanding of homeopathics. And no one ever, on record has died from a homeopathic. And as the homeopathics meet FDA labeling and pharmecopia, the ingrediants are listed-clearer. Sure if you ate handfuls of chamomile out of the garden and were allergic to it, you would have a reaction. But the principles of homeopathy, which is clearly evident you do not have any at all knowledge of, is same cures same, like cures like. Thats why it is related to allergy shots, and innoculations. I suggest before you speak from ignorance, you read an 18th century book. Homeo- same.... |
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THIS IS COMPLETELY INACCURATE, GI UPSET AND DIZZINESS CAN BE A SIDE EFFECT, THERE ARE NO DOCUMENTED CASES OF DIRECT SEIZURE DISORDER RELATED TO ARICEPT, EXELON or RAZADYNE --[/QUOTE] Sorry I know someone who developed seizure disorder from aricept, and all over the internet-is listed as a number one side effect. Certainly, they will never admit its from the aricept, that would interfere with the evergreening. |
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I noticed that there was no comment that homepathics are not tested for safety or effectiveness. The reason being that they would show no significant improvement over placebo. Give your AD loved one a butterscotch drop, because he/she would enjoy it more than a homepathic pill, and it would have the same effect on the disease.
The comparison with vaccines is bogus. Vaccines act by producing a measureable concentration of antibodies in the blood against specific diseases, and homeopathics produce no mesureable response. And while homepathics claim to cure disease, vaccines act by preventing them. As for the claim that homeopathics are used extensively in Europe, please refer to the 1996 report by the European Homeopathic Medicine Research Group which, after studying 184 separate "research" reports on homeopathics, concluded that homepathic research has been worthless, and that no homeopathic substance was proven to be effective against any illness. Those people who rely upon the placebo effect of homeopathic substances may be well-intentioned, but they may also be denying their loved one appropriate medical treatment. If the FDA required homeopathics to undergo the same peer-reviewed studies as conventional drugs, they would be removed from the market. But if the FDA did so, the "business" of homeopathics would put the same pressure on Congress as they did in 1938 when they first pulled their magic act on the American people. Question homeopathic remedies as closely as you question the medication prescribed by your psych doc or neurologist. Dan |
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Wow,talk about a bees nest.
I was diagnosed in 1996 at age 56 with dementia of the Alzheimer's type.I was still very high functioning so I wasn't put on meds.'til 2 years later. I was on Aricept for 4 years,when It stopped working I was put on Reminyl( now Razadyne).That was 3 yrs ago.I am on my second week of Namenda,so far so good. My Neurologist said they are using it earlier before the damage is too bad letting me do better longer.I'm a happy camper. If one medication doesn't work,try another.BUT Namenda is given with Aricept,Razadyne OR Exleon. SnowyLynne |
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the butterscotch drops have worked well on my mother with her advanced stage of dementia/alz. She went off of her Dopey drugs after she had a series of bad falls. Now shes better, eating, gained back proper language skilss and has not sundowned since she was on butterscotch drops. She was diagnosed "severe" by some stupid head shrink psychiatrist at a geriatric psyche ward who said she needed to be on 10 mg of zyprexa and also wanted to put her on Seroquel, as well as a PRN of ativan. She was biting, swearing, fighting and escaping from where she was living, had no idea for a year who my sister was who she had lived with for 8 years. She was microwaving the TV remote, and putting lipstick on her eyebrows. Plus hiding poop all over. I sure am glad the butterscotch drops are ineffective. |
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What are butterscotch drops and how do you use them and where do you get them? Do you mean like the candy or something from a health food store? My 86 yr old grandma has sundowning symptoms are we would like to try anything.
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I give my mother butterscotch drops (the candy) because she has always liked them, and they will have the same medical effect on her dementia as a placebo or any homeopathic substance--none. Actually they may produce a good response in her attitude because they will provide a comforting rememberance of past events with my long-deceased father, since both of my parents liked butterscotch drops (the candy). The comparison is a facetious one and was meant to place emphasis on the complete lack of peer-reviewed clinical trials of any homeopathic substance. Please remember, as Mim has repeatedly said in her posts, that Alzheimer's disease is an organic effect on the brain which alters the chemical balance in the neurons of the brain. These neurons are damaged by the chemical imbalance, and AChE inhibitor drugs such as Aricept, and NMDA receptor antagonist drugs such as Namamda have been medically proven to improve or slow the progression of the disease. They are not cures. They will not stop the progression of the disease completely. But they can extend the ability of the patient to perform their activities of daily living for a longer time when compared with not taking the drugs or with taking a placebo. My mother is at an assisted living/AD facility where they also use other types of therapy such as exercise, music therapy, pet therapy, and other relaxing activities to provide a comfortable and enjoyable environment. Yes I wish a cure would be available tomorrow, and research is being done on promising methods such as gene therapy (see the main Alzheimer's Association site for research that is being done today), but I know she cannot be cured by the present medications. However, they are the only proven medications we have. I would not give my mother homeopathic substances because they have not been proven to be safe and effective by FDA. Homeopathy was popular in the 1800s because medical procedures in the 1700s were dangerous and were the cause of many deaths, while at least homeopathy did not seem to cause harm, since their effect was the same as a placebo. But remember, the 1800s also produced a widespread belief among physicians and scientists that eugenics was a good approach to improving the human condition, and I hope no one today would believe that mandatory sterilization of blacks, Jews, and other "non-white" people is an acceptable medical procedure. Medical science and medical education has advanced over the years, but they do not have the answers to many problems. But belief in an unproven treatment is not the answer either. |
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Coffeesnob posted this: I see no one, no one at all, studying alzheimers residents at any nursing home to "prove" these stupid rip off drugs work...how would they know??
MY STANDARD LINE FOR THE COMMENTS False, there have been many studies that show efficacy in ALF / SNF including the study by Winblad that was used for FDA approval for Namenda which was at first designed to disprove Aricept as a useful med, instead it proved otherwise and showed the meds worked together. Another ignorant statement, get informed coffee you're talking out of your ear at this point. You Obviously have no clue about the studies, where to find them and how to interpret them. AGAIN SEIZURE DISORDER is found in Alzheimer's whether you take Aricept or not. Out of my many years in the field I have never personally seen anyone have a seizure whilst taking a AchE inhibitor. IT IS NOT the first side effect, it is clearly labeled in the PDR as GI and dizziness. Please who read this, understand coffee is playing a game to win her precieved areguement about homeopathic treatments. Also by coffeesnob: I think its peoples own fears, about themselves that stops people from trying something different. If you really love your loved one, focus on their needs, not your own insecurities about whether or not you believe in drugs or homeopathy- if this attitude of PRO-drugs is the mainstream, we all better pray for euthanasia!! HOW DARE YOU make any reference to euthanasia for any disease let alone Alzheimer's. You have crossed the line! How dare you ever make these type of comments, we have therapies because they are proven to work. You are so misinformed and it's sad. You are a very embittered person and your comments have become wreckless and arogant. Get a grip on your comments and do not ever mention death over treatment because people choose a different view point than your narrow minded presentations on this board. If you are here to learn and help then do so, stop the rants and raves and your continous mislableling and misinformation. The discussion is about NAMENDA AND ARICEPT...not coffeesnobs homeopathy. |
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This is more than a bees nest, it is science versus quackery. Someone may desire to use unproven treatments on themselves, but please don't force unproven treatments on your loved one stricken with dementia. They don't have the cognitive skills to determine appropriate medical treatment for themselves, and so must rely upon those who have POA concerning their medical care. Being "open-minded" does not mean accepting statements such as: homeopathy works by subatomic wavefields that are carried by the water or sugar in the homeopathic remedy interacting with the subatomic wavefields in the patient. Yes, that is actually the kind of bunk they use to explain homeopathy. What has happened to science education in this country that makes many people think this kind of statement makes sense. It would be much more important for your loved one with AD if you know that public health physicians in England reviewed the published literature on homeopathic research and concluded that most of the research methods were flawed, and that there was no evidence that homeopathy offered any clinical benefits in treating disease(see the British Medical Journal article by J. Wise from 1997 titled "Heath authority stops buying homoeopathy"). Encourage real research into finding a cure for AD by helping the Alzheimer's Association, and by writing to your federal elected officials to allocate more funding for this research. My mother would expect no more of me. Dan |
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Narrow minded...??? I believe and always have in all modalities. Again, my only point- and its amazing people would have such closed minds about trying other things besides the DOPE. I spend as much time as you do mim- in the most severe dementia unit in a nursing home. I see no one studying anything...I see no stem cell research- I see the drug companies making alot of money. Alot... Its not my homeopathy...its Dr. Hanhemann's..and I have seen a success, from what was a very dismal situation. I have seen dramatic changes in my mother. Its been charted, and both her MD and her nurses have noticed it. Whether you "believe" in homeopathy or not, doesn't matter-its a medicine just like allopathic, only its homeopathic- and its practised all over the world. You cannot deny it. I can say pray for euthanasia ..please do not be so overdramtic...we should hope that when we get old, we have choices like euthanasia, so we do not have to be strapped to a wheelchair with a body alarm. Who wants to live like 99% of my mothers floor??? Doped up, with their heads in their food trays, being given spoonfuls of aricept and namenda, and zyprexa, and ativan mashed up in pudding?? This is not how we measure success in this disease mim, and you know it. Why are people not studying these people?? We can argue till eternity, and on- alls i can say, is I have a success story, and yall should embrace it, and again, if I have a success story-someone else could too. peace. |
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and mim.
"I think its peoples own fears, about themselves that stops people from trying something different. If you really love your loved one, focus on their needs, not your own insecurities about whether or not you believe in drugs or homeopathy- if this attitude of PRO-drugs is the mainstream, we all better pray for euthanasia!! " I think your reaction to this says it all. peace. |
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I think there is only one more thing to say about homeopathy and you can all read it in the Aug 26 2005 BBC World News article on line at: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4183916.stm
The article refers to a Lancet study: "The Lancet says the time for more studies is over and doctors should be bold and honest with patients about homeopathy's 'lack of benefit'". Read the article, then give your loved one his/her medications. Dan |
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Mim And All: Just FYI, here's what the Physician's Desk Reference on the Web says about Aricept... ....... Aricept Side Effects "... The most common are diarrhea, fatigue, insomnia, loss of appetite, muscle cramps, nausea, and vomiting... Other side effects: Abnormal dreams, arthritis, bruising, depression, dizziness, fainting, frequent urination, headache, pain, sleepiness, weight loss. Why should Aricept not be prescribed? There are two reasons to avoid Aricept: an allergic reaction to the drug itself, or an allergy to the group of antihistamines that includes Claritin, Allegra, Atarax, Periactin, and Optimine. Special warnings about Aricept Aricept can aggravate asthma and other breathing problems, and can increase the risk of seizures. It can also slow the heartbeat, cause heartbeat irregularities, and lead to fainting episodes. Contact your doctor if any of these problems occur. In patients who have had stomach ulcers, and those who take a nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drug such as Advil, Nuprin, or Aleve, Aricept can make stomach side effects worse. Be cautious when using Aricept and report all side effects to your doctor..." ....... Please note that ALL these side effects and special warnings were recorded results in patients during those so-called double-blind clinical trials --- i.e., they "happened" in patients taking Aricept. That's the reason why these side effects were documented. So Mim, Coffesnob is right: Aricept "can increase the risk of seizures" as noted in the Physician's Desk Reference. It will not happen all the time, but it happens nonetheless. And so, it's NOT FALSE after all... Please try to be a bit more circumspect when saying this... or that... is false. It destroys one's credibility --- needlessly. All the best, Flip |
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If some people are going to take selective statements about drugs to prove a point, without reading all the information, they are providing a disservice to us all, because they are cherry-picking to prove their own beliefs or biases.
The prescribing info for Aricept also says this about seizures: " Neurological Conditions: Seizures: Cholinomimetics are believed to have some potential to cause generalized convulsions. However, seizure activity also may be a manifestation of Alzheimer's Disease." So ask your doctor about the risks versus the benefits of Aricept or any medication. Also remember that half of the patients in the clinical trials were over 75 years of age, so you have to consider the incidence of seizures that could occur in this population absent the taking of Aricept or if it is the result of any other medication they may be taking. Remember one important fact about clinical trials of drugs. When they report side effects, they also show the percentage of these side effects that occur when taking placebo. For example, Table 3 of the prescribing info for Aricept shows the percent of patients in clinical trials with any adverse event was 74% for those taking Aricept compared to 72% for those taking placebo. Taken out of context, this could be interpreted by someone to show that there is very little risk, only 2% higher, of developing a side effect from Aricept. But in order to get a true picture, you have to compare the side effects involved to see if they differ significantly. One of my family members was experiencing depression over a long period of time, was not eating well, and was losing weight due to the depression. She was prescribed Remeron which has a side effect of gaining weight when compared to a placebo. In this case, this was actually a side benefit of the Remeron, because it controlled the depression, and helped her gain her weight back by increasing her appetite. The following statement has also been made in a post: "Please note that ALL these side effects and special warnings were recorded results in patients during those so-called double-blind clinical trials --- i.e., they "happened" in patients taking Aricept. That's the reason why these side effects were documented." Again, it is not sufficient to state the side effects which occurred while taking Aricept during the clinical trials, without also stating the same side effects that those patients on placebo received. The rate of side effects from placebo could be lower, higher, or the same as the medication being studied. The risks must be balanced against the benefits. I have seen nothing reported in the clinical trials that would terribly concern me or make me demand that these drugs be removed from my mother's treatment. To me, the benefits far outweigh the risks. Dan |
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I have gone back and read my prescription information several times and don't find where is says that seizures are a "side effect"..
It does list seizures under "precautions" along with heart disease, liver disease and numerous other conditions. It seems to me that if the individual is notexperiencing any side effects or has none of the conditions listed under precautions then all the debate is of little importance. If it delays the progression of AD, I will continue it for my wife unless of course it starts producing unpleasnat side effects. PS.... I also looked at the other meds she is taking and noted similar information on such things as the Hormone Replacement Therapy. Guess all medications can have negative as well as positive consequences depending on the indviduals tolerance for the substances. |
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If I wanted to simply "cherry-pick", I wouldn't have provided the direct link to the Physician's Desk Reference on the Internet in my previous post. The PDR web link was in the first sentence, if you didn't notice. The goal was to provide information --- not disservice --- to forum members, and to rebutt Mim's assertion about seizures and Aricept. I agree that it's a matter of balancing benefits against risks. That's a fair-enough statement. Good if Aricept works for some. But side effects and special warnings about any drug for that matter are things the patient or family member should know. All the best, Flip |
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Flip..I'm not surprised that you would cherry pick. Because if you read my previous statement all cholemetric classes can increase the risk of seizure due to the relationship of acetylcholine and seizure activity. But there are no reports of this medication specifically causing seizures. Try as you might but between you and coffee you don't have any credibility.
You are like a yellow journalist, you pick and choose what you believe can win your arguement, but yet you can't offer up any credible information. YOU DO NOT KNOW how to read the PDR, nor did you do your reasearch on Cholimetrics. If you don't have a background in science and medicine, particuarly neuroscience you may not understand these statements or that of the PDR. That's not your fault your coming from a place of ignorance. In terms of coffee's comments on the studies there are studies once again by small, winblad, fillet, doody, cummings and feldman that were held in nursing, ltr's....as well you're not strait on your facts. You won't discredit cholenergics. That's the hope that most of these people have. You trying to tell people there are better choices that have no scientific fact is absolute madness. Neither of you have any scientific training, medical training or credentials...therefore you will come from a place of ignorance, thus no credibility. |
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Once again- my credibility, is in my mothers status. Thats all that I need to say. I really do not care if Mim works for the company that manufactures aricept. And I would not speak about coming from a place of ignorance, as being unable to try something that "might" work without any side effects, versus something that might cause a serious side effect, and costs$$$$. I find much more virtue in the first, I feel very lucky that right now, my mother is doign as well as she is....dope free. And I call it "dope" because of how I see, at least 35 residents of this severe secure alzheimers/dementia ward where my mother lives and see how "doped" out they all are. It saddens me tremendously to see them with their heads in their food trays, and then getting more spoonfuls of mashed up aricept, depakote, ativan, valium, zyprexa, namenda.....haldol. I say with all my heart that pharmeuceutical management of this disease sucks, and the only ones that truly benefit are the drug companies. I am sure mim, that maybe in the beginning "lite" stages of the disease, ones family can put hope-into aricept..or namenda, a little hope, maybe even it helps or stiffles some symptoms for some...but I think it is an unmoral sin to be dosing people up thru and into their final stages, its nothing but selling the drug. I know the homeopathy is not curing my mother, I never said it was!! But it is, 100% successfully relieving all her behavior, and emotional symptoms, and I have my own double blind to prove it, I saw what she was like on Namenda years ago, terrible side effects...I saw what she was like on Zyprexa, & ativan, awful, falling, lost her muscle tone, this is actually almost a triple blind study, and now I see after several months of homeopathy only...knock of calling this lack of credibilty, it has nothing to do with it. It has to do with what a difference it made. peace. |
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For anyone to trumpet that one "positive" result is proof that homeopathy works, and to compare this result to a scientific "double blind" study, shows a complete misunderstanding of what clinical trials are, how they are established, controlled, and what their results mean. Even if this "result" could be consistently reproduced (the latest report in the Lancet shows it cannot, see http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4183916.stm )the reproduction would not prove that homeopathy is a valid treatment for anything other than this specific disease and would not validate any of homeopathy's theories.
The effect of placebo can be very powerful and is part of the "result" of homeopathy. Spontaneous remission has been shown to be a valid occurence and is also part of the "result" of homeopathy, while spontaneous remission is taken into account in clinical trials by the presence of control groups. Valid control groups do not occur in homeopathic research. People who credit homeopathy for recovery from a disease would have done just as well taking a placebo, a butterscotch drop, or nothing at all. Dan |
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| <starmaker>
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Coffee you continue to rant about purely anecdotal evidence regarding your mother's treatment. Aricept and Namenda can be compared to a tire going flat from a blowout -- they won't stop the tire from going flat, but they will slow it down. Secondly, you list a potpouri of drugs being prescribed for AD patients in institutions. This may be true because they lack sufficient personel to otherwise manage these patients. Home care is completely different. Efects from drugs to help control Capgras syndrome, agitation, delusions and hallucinations can be carefully monitored by a loving in home caregiver (husband, wife, etc.) and dosages adjusted to minimums to prevent the symtoms you describe. BTW, these drugs should never -- ever -- be confused with Aricept or Namenda since they serve to control a completely different set of symptoms common to the disease. I find your rants to be confusing for the those caring for patients in the early stages of AD. You are completely off the mark and I would suggest uninitiated readers take your advice with a grain of salt. Your left wing rants are not only not helpful but may in some cases cause real damage to conscientious caregivers seeking to provide the best care for their loved ones. Please back off. Thanks.
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Good points, but as a left-winger myself, I consider coffesnob's rants to be unscientific and not necessarily political. My fear is that homeopathic substances are being directed at those who are desperate and vulnerable because AD is such a terrible disease and present treatments are unable to cure or stop it. People are looking for anything to save their loved ones afflicted with AD. But we should not be promoting quack treatments that are not effective. We could be putting those efforts into ongoing and future research to find a cure. Homeopathic substances may not cost as much as big pharma drugs (not having to conduct expensive clinical trials helps keeps the costs down) but each dollar spent on placebos is another dollar away from finding a cure. I don't like big pharma's emphasis on finding meaningless drugs to "enhance" your experiences when they could be spending more time on disease-prevention, but that does not mean the available AD medications should be ignored. Dan |
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| <starmaker>
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Dan my reference to Coffee's left-wing political rant dealt with his statements like these to MIM:
I agreed with your post completely and thought it made a great contribution to those who are trying to help the people they love who are afficted by this monstrous disease. But, whether our political views are left or right, liberal or conservative, Democrat or Republican they are out-of-place in this forum was meant to be my point. Thanks for your well informed contribution, Dan. |
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back to the butterscotch drop are we.....I doubt very much if we took the butterscotch drops away, there would be no change. As a matter of fact, the fact that the charting of behaviors has been almost empty since we started the butterscotch drops...hum...I'd say some of us are homeopathicphobic. |
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