Hi,
Even though it was NOT what we wanted her to do, some years ago my mom did a quit claim deed, giving her children ownership in her home, while she retained life estate.

I am dealing with an eldercare attorney on this,and I know this probably varies state by state, but has anyone else dealt with this issue when their parents had no long term care insurance, maybe enough money to pay off her mortgage and make some needed repairs, etc.,?

Just would like to hear stories of people who've handled this issue already.

Thanks!

Middlechild, I don't understand the question. Is your mother still living there? Are the siblings divided about whether to sell it to pay for her care? Did siblings ever record the quit claim deed to establish their title or is it sitting in a drawer somewhere? Are you worried about the look-back period for asset transfers relative to an application for Medicaid to pay for a SNF placement? Are you thinking you can get a reverse mortgage? I don't understand what you're trying to accomplish or trying to consult with the elder attorney about. Beth in SC

We want to get mom into an ALF. But we don't know how to deal with selling the house, how the proceeds need to be divided in order to avoid legal and financial difficulties, etc.

Surely someone else on this forum has been through this?

Life estates are one of the most powerful estate planning tools. But they can be nightmares for other purposes.

Each of the children listed as part of the estate are called "Remaindermen". Each child therefore has a financial interest. Laws very by state, but in general, to accomplish what you are trying to do:

If it is an ENHANCED Life Estate Deed, the mother can change things any time. IF SHE IS COMPETENT. If she is not, it is too late. What this means, practically speaking, is that ALL remaindermen (children) would have to agree to sell the property, give up their right to the proceeds, and use the money to pay for her care.

If it is one of the older (NONEHANCED)Life Estate Deeds, there are stil remaindermen but their rights are different. I am unclear on the laws on this matter, and nothing I say should be construed as legal advice in any case.

This will simply give you some ideas on what to search for online and terms to use.

Additionally, the interest in these types of estates can be threatened by creditors. Generally speaking, the occupant (mother) cannot ever be removed from the home. But since there is a financial interest owned (in the future) by the children, their portion of ownership can be exposed to creditors through judgments and bankruptcy fiings.

You need the help of a very experienced asset protection and elder care attorney, in any case.

Good luck sorting this out, you may need it.

Assisted living is not going to be cheap...and Medicaid does not cover it. Also, the better nursing homes require private pay for some amount of time--at least to get it.

There are also health insurance payments, medicine, etc. so most of us have found that money is an issue. It will be needed for her care and maybe for some items you never thought of. So "dividing" it up may not be the best choice.

There is also a look back period for Medicaid.,,,.and a lot of times, we don't have that much time before our LOs need a NH. Going downhill quickly is very common.

If she gifted the home before the look back period but will still need to sell the house for the purposes of taking care of her, then you can list it, but you will have to get all the sibs on board with it. If she gifted it before the look back period, then it will not count as an asset for Medicaid.

Thanks for your replies. I understand it's not legal advice. But what I guess I am asking for is some "hand-holding" since not everyone has dealt with an estate plan set up this way, and there seem to be a lot of "ifs" and uncertainties and contingencies involved.

BTW, last time I contacted siblings, they were very much on board for it going to Mom's care, as long as we can't be somehow financially penalized (as in capital gains tax or something AFTER it's already been spent on mom's care, etc.).

Lots of complications...sounds like elder law attorney time! (And probably tax adviser time too).

Find one here if you don't already have someone knowledgeable in this area:

http://www.naela.org/MemberDirectory/

http://www.nelf.org/

Might I suggest meeting with an Elder Care Attorney....as you mentioned wanting some "hand holding", well they can do just that part.

We thought we had most of our finances in order, but were told attorney could help guide. Remember they do know the laws and areas where we can have the "wiggle room" to help us financially.

If you don't have one in mind, I suggest calling ALZ helpline and asking for listing according to where you live.

Best to you....

I did meet with an eldercare attorney several weeks ago -- I thought they said that they would be in touch, but I haven't had a returned email or phone call or anything.

How long is considered reasonable to wait to hear back?

Am I just overly impatient to hear back because Mom's situation seems to be deteriorating?

Thanks.

quote:

Originally posted by middlechild:
I did meet with an eldercare attorney several weeks ago -- I thought they said that they would be in touch, but I haven't had a returned email or phone call or anything.

How long is considered reasonable to wait to hear back?

Am I just overly impatient to hear back because Mom's situation seems to be deteriorating?

Thanks.

I would expect a call-back within 48 hours max.

It sounds like your mother is going to need this money very soon..you say she is deteriorating. Are you in a small town? Maybe this attorney is not all that on top of the laws so they are doing some research. I would call back and find out what's up.

You could even switch attorney for advice...they can review any paperwork drawn up earlier. We had a lawyer review mom's POA and health directive as it was several years old and law had changed. He wanted to see if there was anything that might need corrected---this attorney did not even charge us.

I don't know who has POA..but I would hope that person would want to provide the best care possible...perhaps in-home care or assisted living for awhile before going to a NH, if at all possible.

By the time you are done spending on care..you probably won't have to worry about capital gains.

elderlawanswers.com has some information as well as link to certified elder lawyers in each state (The site is run by one of the nation's top elder lawyers)

nolo.com also has law info written for the lay person...

I hope you find someone on our forum who's dealt with this themselves..

quote:

Originally posted by brightwings:
elderlawanswers.com has some information as well as link to certified elder lawyers in each state (The site is run by one of the nation's top elder lawyers)

nolo.com also has law info written for the lay person...

I hope you find someone on our forum who's dealt with this themselves..

We hired an elder care attorney who handled our estate planning, DPOA and med proxy etc. It wasn't cheap.

a sort time later attended a seminar series sponsored by BayPath Elder Services (Massachusetts} and a section on legal issues was conducted by http://www.mwlegal.org/ turns out there are free in-person services available.

Check with your local Council on Aging or Jewish Family Services etc. to get reliable suggestions for local help.

IMHO work with a attorney who has first hand experience with medicaid and elder estate trusts. Don't get tapped by someone who is learning using you as the first such client.

How much money are we really talking about? You mention the house isn't paid for and there are needed repairs. When all is said and done, will there be much for care at all? The money goes very quickly. Also, with quit claim deed, is it already a done deal? Are we making this situation too complicated?

I don't really understand the quit claim and life estate procedues and what your thoughts/plans are as to the steps you want/should take and when.

Okay, the thing is, for most of the places around here, we will have to wait a lot longer to get her in if she doesn't start as private pay, at least for a few months (yes, apparently just a couple of months could make a difference, apparently).

And there are assisted living facilities that have something called a medicaid waiver, so that people who don't really need to be in a nursing home can stay in assited living.

Unfortunately, there are not many of those around here, and I'm being told that people who come in as private pay are the ones who get preference for the waiver slots. Some places with the waiver will not even consider accepting medicaid from anyone who isn't already a resident.

I'm thinking that if all the money from the sale of mom's home could be used for her care, she would probably have enough for a year and a half or more.

I want to get mom in ASF ASAP, like yesterday. The quit claim took place more than five years ago. But we haven't yet found out how to "undo" it, or if that's even possible, and how to avoid having OUR FAMILIES being hit with tax problems, etc., as a result.

If undoing it simply isn't an option, we don't know how to deal with the whole "life estate" thing to the satisfaction of Medicaid, that she would need in the next few years, even in the most optimistic scenerio.

It is very difficult to undo a quit claim deed. You could deed it back to her but that might not be the best thing since Medicaid will be involved. The Quit Claim deed tranferred ownership but the "Life Estate" is an issue with Medicaid. They can put a lien on the property since she retains the life estate.
Here is a link with some info:
Quit Claim Deeds and Life Estates

I think this is for Washington state but probably applies to most states. You really need to find a lawyer that is familiar with Medicaid rules for your state.

If you and your siblings now own the property...who has been paying the real estate taxes and the mortgage you mention?

Assisted living isn't going to want to take someone in on Medicaid because they aren't going to know until your LO is there just how much assistance she might need. Sometimes it's not enough support as the person needs more assistance than anyone realized. If they don't have another place to place them on site, then what would their choice be?