I posted earlier about my mom trying to change her DPOA. Her lawyer, Mike, called me and said he didn't think she was competent to change it because of the NeuroPsych report I had sent. WE talked at length about the situation and he decided that she shouldn't be allowed to change it. He suggested that I come in and talk to his partner, Bob, about what I can do to help her and to make sure she doesn't spend every penny in sight.

When I got there, Bob sat down behind his desk and immediately told me he couldn't talk to me. Then he warned me that anything I said to him "could be used against me." He shoved some papers at me and a referral which I didn't look at until today. The papers were about filing for guardianship! I had briefly mentioned conservator ship to Mike, but that was all.

I drove around the parking lot then went back into the office and asked them to return the neuro-psych report and asked for all the copies too. Now I think I probably should have left them there so they remember what's going on with her.

Mike said she she has called multiple times every day so she really means it this time. Today, I learned that she is changing the locks on her house to keep me out.

I think her boyfriend may be trying to get her to close me out of the relationship. She spends a lot of money on him and actually spends every penny of her income every month. It's a good income.

I don't know if it would even be worth going over to try to talk to her about these issues. I've called her every day and she is always "too busy" so there hasn't been an opportunity to talk to her.

I need some advice or input. Could someone make some suggestions?

Should I try to talk to her about the POA and the locks and so on?

Should I just go ahead and file for conservatorship without talking to her first?

Should I file for guardianship? I don't want to be the one, but I worry about the relationship with her boyfriend and his influence on her.


I apologize if this comes off as a rant, I've re-written it a couple of times to try to pull all the whining out.
Thanks
K

Was Bob saying he thought you should file for guardianship, but since this firm represents your mother, neither he nor Mike could help you do it?

It doesn't sound to me as if trying to talk with her about the POA and locks etc. would do any good at this point. If she's changing locks to keep you out, and calling her lawyer several times a day, then she has made up her mind.

Maybe it would help to think through the pros and cons of filing for guardianship? You could gather info about it from people here and also from another lawyer. (Apparently Bob was referring you to another lawyer for this purpose.)

K,

I am not familiar with your earlier post so my comments are strictly based on what is stated above.

First, I think each state may have different rules about guardianship versus conservatorship. I would contact your state’s Adult Services Agency and assure you understand the legal difference.

Next, you probably need to find a good Elder Law attorney who has significant experience working with caregivers in your position. Our local ALZ chapter was able to provide me a list of referrals. It’s a good place to start.

Third, once you know what the legal meaning’s are of each of these terms – then ask yourself honestly if you’re ready to take it on. If the answer is no, then make a list of alternate steps you can try to take.

Having this knowledge should help you answer your questions.

Bz

Well if you said Mom has sufficient money, do you feel the boyfriend is trying to gain her money? I've seen this happen to a great friend of mine, as girlfriend came into his dad's life and had his name on car loans, bought jewelry, etc. In the end, my friends' family gained guardianship.

Also I might suggest an elder care attorney. If not been to one and need names, contact ALZ hotline and ask for a list according to your zip code.

Best to you and plse come back!

something is very wrong here, and getting guardianship will be in your moms best interest. Even if the courts do not give you guradianship a indepentent quardian to protect your mom is important.

quote:

Originally posted by Bazel:
I think each state may have different rules about guardianship versus conservatorship. I would contact your state’s Adult Services Agency and assure you understand the legal difference.
... ask yourself honestly if you’re ready to take it on. If the answer is no, then make a list of alternate steps you can try to take.

I have researched the legal angles. In Michigan, a conservator controls the impaired person's finances and can make all decisions about how that money is spent. She needs that now now. We had talked about me coming over so I could see what bills she pays, when she pays them and how. She has most paid automatically out of her checking account, but also rights checks for some things. She didn't have any problem letting me see that, but suddenly I'm being locked out of everything.

I have no one to sort of "bounce" ideas off about this, and I know many here have gone through this. That's why I asked for help making the decisions.
K
p.s. the memory doc's office has called adult protective services once or twice a month, beginning in June. They have not responded. It wouldn't do any good for me to call them.[/QUOTE]

quote:

Originally posted by Cathy J. M.:
Was Bob saying he thought you should file for guardianship...

The guardianship papers were a complete surprise to me since I hadn't discussed it with either of them. That's what's confusing - as you said perhaps he was trying to give me some kind of subtle message? Or (my cynical side says) did he figure that if he shoved enough papers at me I'd go away.

Your suggestion to do a pro and cons grid about filing with the court is great. I'm going to do that tonight.

I've already consulted with an elder law specialist so I will probably go back and hire her.

Thanks so much for your ideas.
K

quote:

Originally posted by jazzy1:
Well if you said Mom has sufficient money, do you feel the boyfriend is trying to gain her money?

Jazzy, that's one of my big fears. I don't think she's outright giving him money, but she is spending a lot of money on him. It seems very odd for their generation, but since I know he hasn't got much, it's worrisome. Besides, it's unusual for her to spend any money on anyone other than herself.

Thanks,
K

If you have DPOA then why would you need guardianship or conservatorship? Unless your DPOA is only effective upon a stated occurrence (such as incapacity) it should allow you to make any financial transactions until she dies. So you can sign checks for her - just provide the bank with a copy of the DPOA.

The problem with being a conservator is that the court must make a decision about some of the financial decisions. With POA you can handle all of the finances without the expense and oversight of the court. Becoming a conservator should only be necessary if you do not have POA or if you have relatives who wanted control they might apply for guardianship (non-financial decisions) and conversatorship (financial decisions) in an attempt to override your POA.

quote:

Originally posted by moms oldest daughter:
If you have DPOA then why would you need guardianship or conservatorship?.

Because she is trying to "fire" me and choose someone else. She originally asked Mike, her attorney to take over. He told me he doesn't want to. I can't imagine how he could do it anyway, he'd have no idea that she has a boyfriend who may be trying to take advantage of her.

In addition, although I have DPOA, she can still handle her own money and buy and sell her property. DPOA's do not prevent the person from handling their own money or making decisions about how to spend it. My DPOA went into effect the minute she signed it.

I am still not sure what you are going to get from a conservatorship that you do not already have with the DPOA.

You will have to declare that she is incompetent. But you will still have to take away her access to her money or she will continue to handle it and make decisions. Either way you are going to have to have a very difficult confrontation with your mother. I guess the main difference is that you will have a piece of paper that states she cannot handle her own affairs and that would prevent her from going to a different attorney.

You do realize that she has the right to be at the hearing so she will immediately know that you are claiming her to be incompetent? And you cannot sell any of her property without the consent of the court if you have a conservatorship.

Moms oldest - the conservatorship is permanent. Her mother is trying to change the DPOA to remove/replace her. Once she has conservatorship that can't happen.

Kdoglady, I would not be turned off by idea of conservatorship. If that's what needs to be done under the circumstances, then do it! Yes, it may mean you have to jump through more hoops but if your DPOA status is in jeopardy and the attorney does not want the job, what choice do you have? Some folks here do have DPOA and it works, but, I suspect, it works mainly because the holder and the LO were on the same page when it was really important and the holder has quietly taken more and more control and the LO is no longer aware enough to even think abour his/her finances. If your mother and you waited too long for you to get a firm control over everything, and now she's too compromised by the disease to reason with, then the DPOA has little value. As you yourself point out, she's actively engaged in telling folks that you don't have the authority anymore. No bank, etc. is going to go against that announcement, even if it's evident she's not playing with a full deck. And to make matters worse, it appears there is a significant other whispering against you and seeking control. If the neuro-psych concludes that she is incompetent to handle her affairs, or if it does not say so directly, hopefully the evaluator has told you s/he would testify to that fact in court, and if her primary care physician agrees, and you feel there is urgency to ensure her financial well-being, then conservatorship may be your only option. While it is sad that going for it may rupture your relationship permanently, the truth is it seems to be going downhill now anyway and as long as you are honestly operating in her best interest you can console yourself with the knowledge that you are your mother's heroine and working actively to ensure her dignity and welfare. And, yes, if you go the conservatorship route there will be an attorney appointed for her to protect her civil rights, but if you have documented your financial responsibility on her behalf to date and you come across as reasonably suited to the task, then the appointed attorney is unlikely to stand in your way. That lawyer will be swayed by the experts' reports on competency. That lawyer will stand up in court and state your mother's objection but is not likely to fight the petition beyond that. This is a heart-breaking time, no doubt, but it does not sound like you are prepared to just walk away. Good luck. Regards, Beth

It appears that applying for the guardianship of BOTH your mother's person and her estate may well be what is necessary.

If the doctor's office has already called APS several times, did it involve the fact that your mother cannot care for herself secondary to lack of judgment and poor reasoning, and maybe he was worried about the boyfriend's manipulation, or was APS called because your mother made complaints about you? This would be good to know.

If the doctor feels your mother is no longer competent to format her own plan of care and is no longer competent to manage her finances, the doctor can write a letter to that effect. This can be a very important thing.

If you can get two doctors to write such a letter, it is all the better. Has she seen neuro or psych or a second doctor during the last six months or year who would be able to make such a determination?

Such letters can be used should she begin to try and change her DPOA, etc.

These letters can be used along with the application for guardianship. Do call the office of the court that handles the guardianship issues and find out how to initiate the process if this is how you wish to go.

You will need an attorney to represent your application and your mother must be represented by an attorney. It is not usually an adversarial court process if the doctors certify she is no longer competent. She must have an attorney to ensure that things are going properly.

I would not wait too long lest the dynamics shift and your mother does an end run around you secondary to her boyfriend's manipulation and she finds a different attorney who does not know the issues surrounding this.

This has got to be very difficult for you and I am sorry. Let us know how you are doing, I will be thinking of you.

Johanna C.

Hi Johanna,
thanks for your good questions - you've given me things to consider which helped me make a decision.

quote:

Originally posted by Johanna C.: If the doctor's office has already called APS several times, did it involve the fact that your mother cannot care for herself secondary to lack of judgment and poor reasoning, and maybe he was worried about the boyfriend's manipulation, or was APS called because your mother made complaints about you?

The doctor's office called APS to get them to evaluate her in her home to determine if she is safe living alone. This was in response to the Neuro-psych report that asked for such an evaluation.

quote:

Has she seen neuro or psych or a second doctor during the last six months or year who would be able to make such a determination?

Yes, she was evaluated by a neuro-psychologist last spring. He reported that either I should be continue as DPOA or she would need a conservator. According to my attorney, this statement should be all that I need in court since it was so direct.

quote:

You will need an attorney to represent your application and your mother must be represented by an attorney. It is not usually an adversarial court process if the doctors certify she is no longer competent. She must have an attorney to ensure that things are going properly.

I have initiated the process to do an emergency filing for conservatorship and guardianship. We'll probably not go to court until Nov. 3, because the lawyer was told there are no judges available next week, but that may change. I'm doing it as an emergency filing because I don't know when she'll be leaving for Florida and she might not give me any notice in her current state of mind.

quote:

I would not wait too long lest the dynamics shift and your mother does an end run around you secondary to her boyfriend's manipulation and she finds a different attorney who does not know the issues surrounding this.

You are right. I have been worried about this all week, especially since she can come across as quite well on a surface way, so a new attorney probably wouldn't pick up on the dementia. Many of her acquaintances believe she is just fine and some have argued with me about it in the past. Thanks to a support group, I have learned to tell them that she was diagnosed by three doctors and that I'm not going to debate it with them anymore.

quote:

This has got to be very difficult for you and I am sorry. Let us know how you are doing, I will be thinking of you.

Thank you so much Johanna and everyone. I know I am doing the right thing and that my emotional discomfort should not be a factor but it still hurts. I really appreciate all the support I have gotten here.
K

I can't offer legal advice, but if I had to interpret the attorney's statements and actions, I would say they were "telling you" that they cannot help you due to conflict of interest but that you need to do exactly what you are doing.

And of course the emotional discomfort is a factor and it hurts. But you are forging through it and that is what counts. I wish you well.

Hi,
With your power of attorney you should be able to contact her bank and get online access to her checking account.
I did that with my Grandmother when she started having some problems with her finances. You won't be able to control where the money is going, but it might help you decide what you need to do.
When my GM quit reading or understanding her monthly bank statements I put most of her money in her savings account and set it up where the money in the savings account cannot go into the checking if she wrote a check for more than what is in the account.
Also I don't know what information can be obtained from those online background checks but if you don't know the 'boyfriend' it might let you see if he has a criminal background.
It has been one of the hardest things I've ever had to do to take 'control' of the person who I was taught to 'mind'.

Dear K: I am so glad that you have been able to determine what path to take.

I thoroughly understand your mother being able to fool others by "fogging" them as well as understanding those doubting folks who have no clue. I too faced this with my mother and it certainly made things interesting! Eventually, it all comes out in the wash.

While it may be unsettling and labor intensive while this is being processed, the end result will bring much clarity and protection to the table.

Let us know how everything is going. I wish you the very best outcome.

Johanna C.

Hi Frog,
It's almost as if we were separated at birth - we think so much alike! I've been monitoring She added my name to accounts at two of her three banks for quite a while.
She has an account at a third bank, but has refused to add my name. She said she only keeps a few dollars there - but her definition may be very different from mine. One of her checking accounts carries a balance high enough to buy a new car and there's no interest on it.
I ran the background check on the boyfriend last night and he comes up clean.
Saying it's hard to take control of the person I was taught to mind is right on. I hadn't thought of it that way before; that may be partially why I've dragged my feet on this for so long.
Your comments helped give me outside validation of my own notions. Seems silly to need it at my age but I do.
K

Since you have POA you can take a copy of the POA to the bank and get information and access to that account even if she does not allow you to put your name on it. If your name is on it you do not need POA to access.
You can even close her accounts and open new ones. That is what you will need to do once conservator ship is granted. YOU will then be responsible to account for how ALL of her money is spent in reports to the court so you will need to take control of all of her assets and not allow her access. I think most states allow her a amall allowance that she can spend as she likes.
This is the part I think will be difficult to deal with a conservatorship. By the time I took control of my mom's money she really was not capable of handling it. But it would have been difficult to just take over when she was able to at least attempt control.

How old is your mother? How old is the boyfriend? How long has he been around?

If she needs care she's not getting, then could this be elder abuse?

Are there other attorneys in your town? Maybe it would be best to use another office to avoid conflict of interest.

Sounds like a big battle is brewing. Good luck.

quote:

Originally posted by Kdoglady:
Hi Frog,
It's almost as if we were separated at birth - we think so much alike! I've been monitoring She added my name to accounts at two of her three banks for quite a while.
She has an account at a third bank, but has refused to add my name. She said she only keeps a few dollars there - but her definition may be very different from mine. One of her checking accounts carries a balance high enough to buy a new car and there's no interest on it.
I ran the background check on the boyfriend last night and he comes up clean.
Saying it's hard to take control of the person I was taught to mind is right on. I hadn't thought of it that way before; that may be partially why I've dragged my feet on this for so long.
Your comments helped give me outside validation of my own notions. Seems silly to need it at my age but I do.
K

I know this sounds silly but I keep thinking I'm going to wake up one day and she's going be herself again and really put out with me. Why did you do this! Why did you do that! and then I get so sad because even though it really hasn't been that long I have a hard time remembering her. I saw a photo of her and my daughter today. They were wrapped in my daughter's wedding quilt and seeing my grandma's face made me stop and pick up the photo and just stare. My GM is 98 with undiagnosed dementia, which means I don't know what kind. She told me last fall that she wanted to live to be 100 and then she would be satisfied. Had we understood dementia was more than just not knowing your family we would have known for some time what was going on.
Please forgive my rambling.